I wish there were no abortions - I really do. However I understand there are extreme circumstances and I have compassion for those who have to make this very difficult decision. South Dakota - my home state - under a Republican Governor just enacted a law that requires a 3 day waiting period for a woman to have an abortion.
Nature works fast.
Three days later - a group of cells may have formed a hand.
Three days later a heart may have started beating.
Three days later a consciousness may have developed.
Three days later a life may have truly started.
Few women make the drastic decision to have an abortion without careful thought. When this very difficult decision has been made - waiting 3 more days could make the difference on taking a life. There is much debate on when life begins. Personally, I believe that life starts at conception. Perhaps in God's eyes life doesn't really begin until he strikes the heart to beating. Maybe life doesn't begin until the first brain synapse occurs - or maybe it's the first breath.
I don't have the answer on when life begins. I just know that 3 days later there is more life. If that life actually begins during those 3 days (in God's eyes) - who is to blame?
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11 comments:
I'll start by saying, I couldn't have children. As much as I tried, even with fertility drugs, I could NOT to get pregnant. It wasn't meant to be. I will die with a broken heart over never being able to reproduce. I even had names picked out. Tony and Elizabeth.
And when I was 16, I went to Chicago with my then BFF to hold her hand. She was 18 and about to graduate from high school. This was 1976. We had to go to Chicago because back then, there wasn't a place in northern Indiana to get one. She and I both were holy roller teens that dated the same boy. He being the hypocrite that he was wanted to feel me up and I broke up with him because of it. He then dated her and she let him go all of the way.
We reconnected on facebook and we spoke for 90 minutes recently. She had been looking for me for 20 yrs. She finally found me. She wanted to thank me for being there for her that day. I told her what I remembered. The snow storm, my mother having a fit with worry and that I hoped she didn't have any regrets.
Regrets, she said? No way. It was the only choice at the time. She finished school, went to college, got a degree, got married and had three children. The youngest is gay. There was no financial means to raise that child and her medical procedure was LEGAL.
Until a fetus can live on its own, without any help from a mother, then it's her body, her life, her choice and it's between her and the doctor.
A few yrs ago, one of my neighbors looked forward to the birth of their second child. Unfortunately, at 20 weeks when she had her first ultrasound, she found out the baby did not develop a brain. She struggled with the decision. She decided to birth a baby that would not survive more than an hour.
If you think our laws should take away any woman's decision based on somebody else's religion...well, in reality, what difference is that from the Taliban?
Lisa in Indy
Very interesting post Lisa! I was going to point out in the original article that "extreme circumstances" are different for different people. What may not seem like a real devastating challenge for one person may be a unbearable for another. Life is never so cut and dried the way the Religious extremists would like to think.
I also wanted to say - as I have in previous posts on this subject - that I personally think the father should be involved in this decision as well when possible. Many times they don't even know the situation exists.
Thanks for sharing your story Lisa.
I had another comment typed up and when I clicked publish, it went into cyber space! argh...I don't have time to retype it. crap.
Lisa in Indy
Aaargh! That happened to me the other day too! I spent a lot of time I didn't really have writing up a response - then poof! Gone. Very frustrating. I didn't have time to re-write either.
Hello Everyone,
My neighbor that had the problem with the baby? She let nature take its course and the baby arrived but that was 8 WEEKS after the ultrasound. She could have gone to a doctor like Dr. Tiller but she didn't.
There is a smile to be had now. She delivered a very healthy baby girl about 2 yrs ago so her family is complete now.
Another friend of mine never had children because her brother was born with a defect that she discovered was hereditary so she probably had her tubes tied. I never asked how she kept from getting pregnant but that was my conclusion.
I have another friend that is single, never married and had an event where the birth control failed. She got violently ill with the pregnancy and couldn't work. She did what she felt was right for her situation and ended the pregnancy. She knew she couldn't afford to lose her job or raise the child even if she could carry it to term.
Why am I telling you this? Because every single pregnancy is unique and every woman either welcomes the pregnancy or doesn't but it all depends on her life at that time. It's between her and her doctor and the government cannot police every womb in this country.
What the conservatives want to do is make sure every conception is carried to term even though Mother Nature has her own factors to consider. How about domestic violence? How about fetal brain development? How about the financial status of the mother and as you mentioned Den, the father? None of these can be 'controlled' by the government and shouldn't. And to determine a woman's right by some bible or church belief is just barbaric in this modern world. And again, it is no different than the taliban's control over women on that other continent.
Abortion has been legal my entire life. Just like the Gen X generation that cannot fathom not having a remote for their tv, it's just the way it is. I'm not trying to compare the two, but to change back seems idiotic and intrusive. I married outside of my race so should I be jailed for that now? Why heavens no!
Leave well enough alone, educate women and stop trying to control them or tell them how to live or breed and stop the murder of doctors trying to help these women in their hour of need. I was deeply affected when Dr. Tiller was assassinated and cried for his family.
Lisa in Indy.
Life is full of suffering. We all are afflicted with our burdens and travails. All sorts of terrible things could befall anyone of us at anytime (and some already have). These things are all indisputable facts of life.
However, no matter how great our suffering, as humans we are still rational, moral agents. No amount of suffering, however painful, difficult, and challenging can ever justify evil actions on our part. It can help explain why we all do evil things, but it can never justify them.
Many people believe that it is always and everywhere wrong to intentionally kill an innocent human life. I agree with them. Dennis, Lisa,and Thohea disagree.
I can understand why Lisa, as an atheist, would disagree with that principle, since the only philosophically tenable position from an Atheist point of view is that the entire Universe is ultimately absurd and meaningless, and Good and Evil can have no objective reality (I suspect, but am not quite sure, that Thohea holds to a similar form of Atheistic Moral Relativism also).
Dennis, because of his more spiritual orientation confuses me more. He even admits to a belief that Human Life begins at conception, and yet he still believes in a two tiered system, where some innocent human life, ironically the most innocent and defenseless of all human lives, does not warrant the same value and protection of some other innocent human lives; indeed he holds that it warrants absolutely no value or protection at all.
Of the three positions discribed (mine, Lisa/Thohea, Dennis)I actually find Den's position to be in some ways the most inhuman and morally confused of all (although I sense that Dennis is aware of the contradictions involved, and struggles with them).
You have all provided moving accounts of friends and family and of their, often heart-wrenching, encounters with this most difficult of issues. I could add many myself. But so far, the only moral justification that you have put forward in support of the intentional killing of innocent human life has been an often emotional appeal to a raw and simple Utilitarianism. The self interest and convenience of only one party involved are given the only consideration, and the rights and humanity of the other party are either totally denied or completely ignored.
I have no illusions of having the least chance of changing anyone's mind here, but at the very least I think that the TRUTH needs to be spoken aloud, so I will say it one more time:
IT IS ALWAYS AND EVERYWHERE WRONG, TO INTENTIONALITY KILL AN INNOCENT HUMAN-BEING. THERE IS NO SET OF CIRCUMSTANCES THAT CAN JUSTIFY SUCH AN EVIL ACT.
You know Andre, I wasn't going to comment but like my conservative brother and sister, who agree with you completely, I do Not.
This isn't about the unborn. Just like this government shutdown is not about the budget.
What I have a problem with in regards to women rights (which you are not), is that you insist on telling another human how to live, how to die and how it fits your religious beliefs. Because I also believe in one being able to take their own life in dignity. If I ever need to end it all because my body is overrun with cancer, then I want to end it my way, with a bit of dignity in the process but our laws and your religion say it's a sin to do that. I call B.S. How many people quietly pull the plug for their loved ones so that they do not have to suffer anymore? We put our pets down, why can't the same compassion be extended to the humans on this planet?
Your stance, to me, is the most arrogant thing about conservatives. How dare you tell another person how to live, how to die and how to think. Unless they break a law, I say stay out of my bedroom and stay out of my uterus. Get off my lawn!
And you don't know jack about me or what I know or what I believe, so stop trying.
I am a living breathing human on this planet that disagrees with most of everything you've written here and I'm not afraid to stand up and say why. But I am in no way trying to convince you to change your mind which is what I detest about you people.
I also think that I am far too busy to go point-counter-point with you. That was why I suggested that you go to Mickey D's and apply for a job. Apparently, they are hiring. Maybe then you'll have less time to bore us readers of this blog.
I'm not very sorry that my words may seem bitter and mean but for the love of your sky fairy, please give us all a break. I came here to read about Den's life, not yours. If nothing else, I admire Den's patience with you. If I had someone stalking my blog like you, I would have just pressed delete and thought nothing more of it.
I am woman hear me roar. :-)
Lisa in Indy
Andre - correct me if I'm wrong but I think you indicated that capital punishment is acceptable in the past.
I am not confused in the least. I know what I believe in, I know what you believe in, and I know what Lisa believes in (and doesn't believe in). These are all right in my opinion. We are all entitled to our OWN beliefs. It's when you try to force your religious belief on someone else - especially in relation to our government that I have a problem. You may not put laws on our bodies. Period.
Until the unborn are freed of the mothers womb - they are part of that mother. They have a symbiotic relationship with only one voice. I've indicated I believe the father should also be involved whenever possible - but I still know that the woman has the final voice. I can't and won't speak for her and neither should you.
Dennis & Lisa,
You both have raised many side issues, some marginally relevant to the question of the morality of abortion, others completely irrelevant.
It's my turn to be exhausted from painting all day ( in the hot south Texas sun!), so all I'm going to say is this:
It's still murder, and I believe that despite all your protestations and denials, deep down inside your hearts, you both know that is the truth.
Lisa
I admire Den's patience with you.
Andre
So do I. It's one of his many fine, redeeming qualities.
Lisa
I would have just pressed delete and thought nothing more of it.
Andre
Of that, I have also not the slightest doubt.
Lisa
Your stance, to me, is the most arrogant thing about conservatives.
Andre
Arrogant? Maybe(probably), but so what? Should as small a human concern as "arrogance" really dictate whether or not the most important questions of Life and Death are discussed?
Besides, is it really any less arrogant to claim such an
omniscient understanding of the Universe as to be able to claim the right and power to decide which innocents shall live and which innocents shall be put to the sword?
Is not that a far greater hubris?
Lisa
How dare you tell another person how to live, how to die and how to think.
Andre
Well, there goes the Abolition movement, the Civil Rights movement, the Suffrage Movement, even the Campaign for Gay Marriage Rights, and every single other instance in human history when one person said to another: "You know, there might be a better way..."
Besides, no one is compelling you to think in any particular way. I am just suggesting that you consider that you may be mistaken about something.
You are a free, moral agent. You have free-will. You are free to choose good, and free to choose evil. No one can ever take that right from you.
Lisa
...I say stay out of my bedroom and stay out of my uterus. Get off my lawn!
Andre
I'm not in any of those places. I am just trying to engage with you in the Public Square, in the free marketplace of ideas. If that does not interest you, of if you find that idea too frightening or intimidating, fine. Just walk away and ignore me. But please don't try to suppress my freedom of thought and speech, or try to intimidate me into silence. I understand that is a natural reflex for Liberals, who live in constant fear of truth ever being expressed, but it is an anti-democratic and totalitarian impulse, and you really should try to resist it.
Oops! There I go again; telling you how to live and think!
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