I saw this today in the parking lot of the Firestone station that was fixing my tire. Someone has been duped - big time. This idea that companies are moving their operations overseas because of excessive taxes is a big lie. And apparently it is working (on those that don't think for themselves). The truth is that American companies are moving their operations overseas because they can get cheap labor there - very cheap. Corporations can pay people in these 3rd world nations a few dollars a day to work 12 hour days - 6 days a week and maybe even more. These countries have few labor laws and extreme poverty and American corporations are taking advantage of this desperation in the name of higher profits. It has nothing to do with taxes. Even if these corporations had zero taxes - they would still be operating in these countries and simply add their tax savings on to their profit margin.Now - about those taxes. American corporations use a lot of government services. It is their big trucks that are tearing up our roads. They use our ports, airports, and many other government run transportation for delivery of their goods. They also enlist the services of the fire department, police and other government agencies. I dare any corporation - even if they are operating overseas - to run their business without using any government resources. They can't! Therefore they must pay taxes to support this infrastructure. It cannot be the sole responsibility of the working poor to pay for our countries shared services. Those who profit from this infrastructure should be the first ones to help pay.
Corporations won't bring their operations back to the USA until American workers agree to work for the same wages as those overseas. No thank you! I'm strongly against turning America into a 3rd world country. In my opinion, corporations that move their operations overseas to take advantage of cheap labor or lower taxes are un-American. Not only should they be taxed - they should be fined!
30 comments:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/26/business/ieconomy-apples-ipad-and-the-human-costs-for-workers-in-china.html?hp=&pagewanted=all
You must have read this article in the NY Times. I've been following this story for a few days now and digging up all of the stories that have been published. Sad isn't it?
It's especially sad for me here in Indiana whose state house voted for a Right to Work law yesterday with their Republican majority. The Gov said he'd sign it even though he didn't think it was necessary last year, or the year before that.
We have to stop this madness.
Lisa
Lisa - I hadn't seen that article. But the first thing that came to mind when I saw this truck was a story on The Daily Show with John Stewart about Foxconn. This story made me very sad. It's similar to your article.
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-january-16-2012/fear-factory
Yeah, that was the second time I had heard about foxcomm. The Daily Show never fails to entertain and enlighten. He was brilliant last night when he went off on Indiana Gov Mitch Daniels.
That foxcomm story is just Sad, so sad.
Lisa
You guys are such hypocrites!
When are you going throw away your smart phones, and computers, and BlueRays, and all the other electronic luxury devices that fill your homes?
Until you do that, you are every bit as responsible for the working conditions in Chinese factories as any corporate CEO.
If you truly believe that affordable iPhones, iPads, etc, etc. are the cause of a net increase in human misery in China (or anywhere else in the world) then what does that say about you if you choose never-the-less to enthusiastically embrace these objects as major components of your chosen lifestyles?
I noticed in the Jon Stewart piece, that even he admitted to this hypocrisy, but rather than that being a springboard for any meaningful reflection leading to a true moral response (beyond self congratulatory posturing), it became merely a set-up for another punch line and another cheap laugh. He knows which side his bread is buttered on, and I'm sure that the thought of his ever foregoing the latest and greatest Apple toy, because of the state of working conditions in China, would never even cross his mind. He would like for people to think he "cares", but not to the point of any actual personal discomfort or inconvenience.
"His story made me very sad."
Oh, isn't that wonderfully compassionate of you? Now you can enjoy all your electronic toys without any guilt, because you are "sad" at the sacrifices others have made so that you may afford to purchase these things.
Den, adds injury to insult: he correctly observes that American corporations choose to locate their manufacturing in China because it is cheaper to produce products there than in the U.S. (duh). Astonishingly, his solution is to make manufacturing in the US even MORE expensive through increased taxation and "fines".
Brilliant.
Oh shut the hell up Andre. I don't use Apple products, have a blue ray or fill my home with 'Made in China' products if I can help it. And I spent the last 25 years teaching people how to use computers so they could do their jobs better. It's not our fault that Companies got greedy and lobbied congress to fill their wallets. We are the 99%! Remember that? At least Gates is giving away most of his greed by educating the world or healing the sick. What have you done lately besides pretend that you know us with your repugnant attitude?
"...I don't use Apple products,"
Way to completely miss the point, Lisa. I assume you have a cell-phone, a computer, a television, a stereo.etc, etc?
"We are the 99%!"
A mindless slogan (especially one that is neither accurate nor truthful) is no substitute for a reasoned argument. It is little more than an admission that you have no argument.
(BTW: Whatever did happen to OWC? I'd forgotten all about them...just yesterdays news, huh?)
Talk about missing the point Andre - you defend corporations and instead point the finger at consumers. As you correctly pointed out, we as consumers do not have much choice as to where our electronics are manufactured. But corporations do have a choice.
"corporations do have a choice..."
Not if they want to stay in business.
The practical freedom of action
and choice of Corporations, large and small, are just as much constrained by the realities of the world marketplace as are the actions and choices of consumers.
Personal example: Some years ago my 1st wife and I began selling laser engraved wooden alphabet beads wholesale, which we manufactured out of a small shop we built for that purpose in our back yard. I spent about a year taking them around the country to various gift and trade shows, and fairly quickly we had our product selling in over 1000 gift and toy shops all over the country.
Business was brisk; we could barely keep up with the orders,and the cash was flowing in. We were on our way to the 1% (or , at least the 5%)
But then a number of others began producing similar beads. They weren't as nice as ours, but because they had theirs manufactured in China, they were able to sell them at a significantly cheaper price than we could. Our sales began to plummet and within two years, because we had neither the resources nor the inclination to move our manufacturing overseas, our little Mom & Pop business went bankrupt.
Lesson learned.
Alphabet beads, or smart phones; the same laws of the marketplace apply.
So Andre - are we to understand from your story that you are perfectly fine with these companies operating overseas AND you also don't want them to pay any taxes?
"As you correctly pointed out, we as consumers do not have much choice..."
Actually, that wasn't my point at all. I was making the opposite point: you DO have a choice.
If you truly believe that the workers in Chinese factories are being unconscionably exploited, you could chose not to subsidize such exploitation by simply refusing to purchase those products.
That would, of course, require some level of self sacrifice and inconvenience on your part. So much easier to just be a Liberal poser, and publicly whine about how those evil corporations are putting their own greedy interests above those of the exploited Chinese workers, and about how you are going to send an outraged text-message to your Congressman about it on your new iPhone14 (right after you download that cool new XXX app to your color iPad).
Indulging in some rhetorical exaggeration here...when I say "you" I don't necessarily mean just you personally. We are all inclined to cheap moralizing and personally demand-less ethical outrages. If I find myself in slightly less of a moral quandary in this particular situation, it is only because I do not think that these Chinese workers are necessarily being so unconscionably exploited.
Exploited - yes.
Unconscionably - arguably not. Certainly no more so than my grandfather who spent most of his life toiling in a New England shoe factory (and judging from the old photographs I've seen, under conditions far less well-lit and well-ventilated, and
routinely less protective of life and limb, than any shiny new and modern Foxconn factory).
I've worked in factories before, and yes, it can be mind numbing and soul-deadening work, but so can living in a mud hut and trying to scratch a meager living out of endless hours of back breaking work tilling the soil under the hot sun or in the freezing cold,watching child after child die from malnutrition or lack of basic medical care. This would have been the inescapable fate of so many of these millions of young Chinese workers, if all these Western corporations hadn't arrived to lure them out of the countryside into the cities with the offer of a level of housing, nutrition, medical care, entertainment (and the reliable hope that all of these things will increase in scope and quality over time) that their semi-literate peasant parents couldn't have aspired to in their wildest dreams.
"..you are perfectly fine with these companies operating overseas AND you also don't want them to pay any taxes?"
Yes, I'm perfectly fine with a private company operating anywhere in the world it wants to. That's called Freedom and Liberty. I think we need more of both.
Of course they should pay taxes (as they do). I just think it's really dumb to actively encourage companies to ship jobs overseas by taxing them at nearly the highest Corporate tax rate in the developed world.
I like Rick Santorum's idea to lower the corporate tax rate to a point where it's more equal to that of the other wealthy industrialized nations, but then to additionally lower it to zero for every dollar that companies bring back from overseas and spend on building manufacturing plants (and jobs) here.
Companies should be free to locate anywhere in the world they want to, but that doesn't mean we should encourage them to ship jobs overseas through Big Government's greedy and short-sighted tax policies.
Freedom and Prosperity are not enemies, they are each the ally and enabler of the other.
You said the magic words Andre "Developed World". How did it get developed? TAXES
I also believe in an open world market. In fact, there is nothing illegal about operating in a 3rd world country. However, I have to question the patriotism of those companies that choose to do so. Rather than support our own country they are developing another country instead. At the same time they are lowering the standards we have worked hard to create here in America. And they feel they should do all of this while not paying a fair share of taxes to support our own infrastructure. You can defend this practice if you want. I will not.
BTW - even though I believe in an open world economy, I think we should use it to our advantage buy building quality products here while paying a decent livable wage and exporting them to the rest of the world. You admitted your beads were better quality - but apparently you didn't market them well enough to compete in the global market.
Ha ha haaa...I'll be back shortly. As a child of two factory workers and union members to boot, I have much to say.
Good one Denbec. Sounds like someone got greedy and couldn't compete.
Lisa
On second thought, I'm not going to waste my time defending myself. I have a stereo I bought, my first ever in '92. And it was made in Japan. I try to buy American but seriously, what is made in this country? Oh yeah, glass food containers which I proudly bought last month. C ya.
Again, are you going to pay $800 for an iPhone built in America, or $200 for an iPhone built in China?
Of course you are going to buy the $200 one (you would be a fool not to), but just as it doesn't make you any less patriotic for making an intelligent economic decision based on what you can afford, neither does it make the manufacturer of that phone any less patriotic for making a similar intelligent economic decision based on what they can afford.
PS: Is it only the lack of proper "marketing" that leads you to spend $200 instead of $800 for a similar smart phone? Or, to phrase the question another way; what would it say about your intelligence and common sense if you could be convinced merely by a flashy advertising campaign to pay $800 for the exact same thing you could by next door for $200?
Andre: I am a geek by trade, not by choice. Meaning, I worked in the IT field because it came natural to me, not because I pursued it. I got my first cell phone 5 yrs ago okay. I had one for work before that, but only for work. As it is now, I use a pay-as-you-go phone and the only reason I want to keep it is for emergencies when I travel alone. We don't play video games. We are in the process of setting up a Computer (for streaming) and an antenna for our tv viewing and when our direct tv contract expires in March, bub bye. We've been choked by that contract ever since we moved in this place.
If you think I want to exploit workers on the other side of the planet, you're so very wrong about me and most liberals. We do care about humans, no matter their color or gender or country of origin. The reports say that 20-30% would be the only cost difference if all of the Apple products were made in the states. Anyone that pays $1000 for an IPad, will pay 20-30 bucks more without hesitation. And to be honest, I'm a windows expert, not MAC.
Ciao.
There is no shame in owning electronics. There is shame in not paying workers a livable wage and treating them like humans - either here or in another country.
What I'm reading over and over from Andre's posts is that it is perfectly OK and actually expected for corporations to exploit their employees for increased profits. That is the Republican mindset.
"..it is perfectly OK and actually expected for corporations to exploit their employees for increased profits."
Well, you say it's OK every time you purchase some new high tech toy. You live in the full and complete knowledge that your purchases are what makes this alleged system of exploitation possible (indeed, that it is the ONLY thing that makes it possible), and yet you choose to make those purchases anyway.
"There is shame in not paying workers a livable wage and treating them like humans -"
It seems to me, that if you truly believe that this is what is going on, and yet you freely choose to financially support such a system by underwriting it with your purchases, then the shame is on you.
Note also, that the shame would not be lessened even if it turned out that you were wrong about the true nature and effect of American corporate investment in China. Even if it turned out that such investments were an overwhelming net positive for the Chinese people, the fact that you believe otherwise and yet still support it is what is shameful.
On the other hand, if it turns out that I am wrong in my belief that such investment by Western companies in China is in reality a net positive for the Chinese people, then I would be merely guilty of having been mistaken.
I would have been guilty only of supporting a system that I had mistakenly thought was good for the people of the Third World, whereas you would have been guilty of consciously supporting a system that you thought was bad for those same people.
If that illustrates the difference between the Republican and Democrat mindset, then give me the Republican mindset every time!
"The reports say that 20-30% would be the only cost difference if all of the Apple products were made in the states. Anyone that pays $1000 for an IPad, will pay 20-30 bucks more without hesitation."
20-30% of $1000 is $200-$300, not "20-30 bucks".
You're off by a factor of ten.
Andre - How are you posting comments without using any electronics?!
Your arguments on this topic are so weak they really don't even deserve additional conversation. You imply corporations should be allowed to do whatever they want to humanity and the environment and that massive profits are really the only priority. And the only way we can possibly stop them from this harmful destructive behavior is to build a thatch hut to live in and grow our own food. And somehow you don't see this as turning America into a 3rd world country. It's truly amazing.
I hope the readers notice how you place all the blame regarding unethical corporate conduct on the consumers and not where it truly belongs - with the corporations themselves. That says a lot about how you and your party operate.
Well, of course, I have said none of those things.
"You imply corporations should be allowed to do whatever they want to humanity..."
How does supporting a corporations right to use it's own best economic judgement to figure out how to most efficiently produce and market a product that you want to purchase at a price that you can afford, somehow translate into saying that they should be allowed to "do whatever they want to humanity"?
A little rhetorical exaggeration is one thing, but that's just plain silliness.
***
"you place all the blame regarding unethical corporate conduct on the consumers..."
Absurd. I defy you to quote back to me a single line where I have ever made such a statement. That is not the argument I have made at all.
I have merely pointed out to you some of the contradictions and moral implications of some of your positions. You hold corporations up to standards of behavior while completely exempting yourself from any similar standards.
When you purchase any product produced by Third World labor, you are "exploiting" that labor every bit as much as any Western corporation. Even Jon Stewart gets that (and then immediately does his best to try drive such uncomfortable thoughts from his head).
***
"How are you posting comments without using any electronics?!"
That you would ask such a silly question just demonstrates that you still don't understand my criticisms at all. For me to purchase and use electronic equipment manufactured in the Third World places me in no contradiction or moral quandary at all, because I, unlike you and Lisa, believe that such activity is immensely helpful to the people of the Third World.
***
"Your arguments on this topic are so weak they really don't even deserve additional conversation. "
Well, apparently they are strong enough that the only way you can deal with them is by completely misrepresenting and distorting them.
Your arguments on this topic are so weak they really don't even deserve additional conversation.
Yep, I was off by a factor of ten. Excuse my typos. And I agree with Denbec that your arguments are so weak that they place the blame, not on the corporations but on the consumers. Actually, I would pay FULL FREAKING PRICE for products that are manufactured with civil and human rights over anything that was not manufactured by any other means. And because I'm not one of those 'look the other way' humans, I haven't been anywhere near one that has to have the latest technical advances in anything. Did you forget that my stereo is 20 years old?
I hate buying clothing made in china that falls apart or shrinks after one washing. I hate getting a pair of tennis shoes on-line and open the box to discover that only one shoe is in the box, which happened to us just this week!
You know Andre, you are one sad republican. Blame the victim! Not the bloody companies! The almighty dollar is king. USA, USA. It's sickening.
I'm glad I don't know you personally. I couldn't be your friend. I wouldn't want to be your friend. I wouldn't want anything to do with you. Your attitude is what took this country into the biggest recession we've seen in nearly a century. But you know what? Your ideas failed. Your ideas are a$$backward. Your ideas aren't going to be tolerated any longer. We're the 99% and we're on to you and yours.
ciao.
"...your arguments are so weak that they place the blame, not on the corporations but on the consumers."
What is weak is your reading comprehension skill, for nowhere in this thread have I said what you claim that I have said. (Dennis also seems to suffer from a similar cognitive disability).
"Blame the victim! Not the bloody companies! The almighty dollar is king. USA, USA. "
I never said any of those things. I suspect that you are just projecting your own bizarre and confused prejudices and paranoia onto my words.
It's too bad you are so closed minded and ideologically bigoted that you can't even HEAR an alternative point of view. What a needlessly sad and impoverished way to live.
I forgive you your mean and hurtful words, both because that is the right thing to do, and because I know that such gratuitous cruelties are usually born more out of ignorance and fear, than out of true maliciousness.
Andre - you really enjoy using the "I didn't say" argument to support your nonsense. Well guess what - I didn't say you said. I say things like "you imply" or "are we to understand". When you write something down - especially an story like the bead story - we draw conclusions from it. That's the nature of communication. Why I have to explain this to you is beyond me.
Moving on.....
I'm not one to accept conspiracy theories much less create them - but I had an "ah-ha!" moment last night while enjoying a cheap Merlot and watching Star Wars. In a recent post you spent a great deal of time making sure every life ever conceived makes it to birth. Is your passion on the topic really about life or is it about "assets". After all, these aren't just babies being born - they are workers (not employees - workers). Those are lots of mouths to be fed and people will do almost anything - at any wage - to feed a child or themselves. As you have been pointing out in this article - desperation is the formula for cheap labor. The GOP likes to cause people to be in desperate situations - that way they can reduce their labor costs. It is why everyone's wages in the USA are being slashed right now while corporate profits escalate. And wasn't it Newt Gingrich who suggested putting children back to work?
How's that for a Merlot moment!
I get some excellent Merlot from Trader Joe's. Well, as long as it's not Sunday that is. See, Indiana suffers (STILL) from those religious BLUE LAWS that outlaws the sale of alcohol in stores. But as long as your drinking and driving...you can go to any restaurant and order as many alcoholic drinks as you want. Isn't that special?
ciao
Can't buy any beer here before noon on Sundays. Hello?! Beach opens at sunrise! LOL
The beach opens at sunrise. I love it!
ciao
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